Curse

Daesu · Jul 22, 2011, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

One extremely generalized way to look at it is by profession. If the mesmer, necro, and rit are the most powerful professions in PvE and the ranger, paragon, and ele are the least powerful professions in PvE, nerf the first three to the level of the professions in the "middle" of the power spectrum, and buff the underpowered professions to the level of the professions in the middle. Obviously, this is somewhat generalized, but it gets the point accross that balance can only be achieved through a combination of nerfs and buffs (though at this point in the game, far more nerfs are needed).

That wouldn't work. I made my mesmers back in 2005 and for years it was the weakest profession until only recently. Eles were popular nukers and rangers have barrage. I was even kicked out of parties several times for being a mesmer in favor of Eles. Many people actually deleted their mesmers.

The common joke in gw about mesmers from the eles players was, "the best denial you can inflict on your enemies is to simply nuke them to death, so why bother with interrupts and skill denial"?

Obviously at that time, Eles were overpowered. There was no AoE-flee AI, no HM, etc. But nerfing an OP class and buffing an underpowered class is exactly what happened to get to where we are today.

Once they have buffed one class, players of the other classes would start considering themselves to be underpowered and they would push hard for their own classes to be buffed as well, and the cycle repeats. There is no end to this.

Reformed · Jul 22, 2011, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Once they have buffed one class, players of the other classes would start considering themselves to be underpowered and they would push hard for their own classes to be buffed as well, and the cycle repeats. There is no end to this.

This should really be stickied somewhere so people pay attention to it. Worse still is that when Anet does finally cave in they overbuff to hilarious levels and then extremely slowly taper it off with minor buffs. Be careful what you wish for...

Missing HB · Jul 22, 2011, 04:15 PM // 16:15

So, like i said it few weeks ago, they did the terrible epic stuff as usual... Not nerfing dervishs directly but fevered dreams is useless.. but well, they still got some nerf ideas for next months so i guess.....

Also, i would like to say thanks for changing shadow walk 2 years after HB was deleted, surely it was easily twice more overpowered and annoying in GvG or JQ!!

Good job as usual

Lanier · Jul 22, 2011, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Once they have buffed one class, players of the other classes would start considering themselves to be underpowered and they would push hard for their own classes to be buffed as well, and the cycle repeats. There is no end to this.

Thats why they have to be careful in buffing classes, and only do it in small steps at a time. The GW populace as a whole is not so stupid that they can't realize which professions truly are overpowered and which truly are underpowered. As long as anet buffs and nerfs in small steps, there wont be a repeating cycle.

Thus, the problem is just as much the discepency (sp?) between classes as it is the way in which anet chooses to impliment skill updates. Implimenting huge skill updates every 3-9 months is so stupid. What they should do is impliment smaller skill tweaks addressing the absolute worst and absolute best skills in PvE at the time every month.

Skyy High · Jul 22, 2011, 05:11 PM // 17:11

I don't get why everyone is decrying the FD nerf as "lazy". If sniping one skill (that, incidentally, isn't really used in PvP except for in this build) significantly hurts the triple derv build, is that really such a huge problem? People complain when they do massive sweeping updates because they go overboard, people complain when they do focused updates because they're not addressing the "real issues"....c'mon. Dervs have been hit consistently every update since the original derv buff update, now both of their OP IAS skills have been nerfed back to being actually kind of reasonable, and now their easy daze enabler has been killed. This is a pretty normal development cycle, you know? Buff too much, then scale back as necessary little by little. Yeah, I'm sure there are those among you who would rather they just remove dervishes from the game entirely. Guess what, that's not a helpful idea. They managed to scale assassins back from "omg remove them they're breaking the game!!" to their current reasonably balanced state, but it took a lot of small updates like this. In short: chill out. There's nothing to complain about here. Play with the update, see how it works out, and they'll reevaluate and tackle it again if need be.

*lemming* · Jul 22, 2011, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Can we keep the class balance stuff out of this thread? Make a new thread if you guys really want to quibble over whether or not Rangers are worse than Paragons in PvE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

I don't get why everyone is decrying the FD nerf as "lazy". If sniping one skill (that, incidentally, isn't really used in PvP except for in this build) significantly hurts the triple derv build, is that really such a huge problem?

Dervs were a problem before Fevered came into play.
Fevered wasn't a problem before Dervs came into play.

In the absence of more effort, the Fevered nerf gets the job done, but it's a textbook case of addressing the symptom rather than the problem. (Yes, I know Dervishes got a nerf in this update.)

FoxBat · Jul 22, 2011, 08:07 PM // 20:07

The "timing adjusting" is likely an attempt to fix JQ carriers hanging out in base, as well as FA turtles remaining stuck even when there is *no aggro* on them, which happens often enough. Not really an attempt to address ledge camping.

Pugs Not Drugs · Jul 22, 2011, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by floor

People often criticise anet's work, saying how the players keep telling you what needs to be done, why dont u listen?

Well consider the fact that 99.99% of the suggestions proposed to anet are absolutely horrible, and would do nothing but make the game worse, its not all that suprising that they ignore a lot of people's requests. People simply just dont understand what skill balance is.

Best example is all the people who sit here saying "wheres my ele/paragon/ranger buffs??????". gw needs NO more buffs. nerf back the OP stuff, then other stuff which has always been somewhat balanced, wont seem so bad/useless. Unfortunately this is a really big job, and despite the stick that anet get, their updates regarding skill balance are "usually" aimed in the right direction, just unfortunately they are not swinging the nerf bat quite as freely as many people would like, taking a much more cautious approach.

The best analogy i can give for it is this:
In your garden you plant a little bush and some other flowers, for a while its nice, the bush then grows out of control into an enormous hedge(ie- dervishes), its now so big that you cant see the other plants in your garden. What do u do????

a) Buy some new really big plants to go with ur massive hedge. (buff other stuff)
b) Trim the hedge back.... (nerf the actual problem)

I dont think it takes a genius to see the obvious answer.

I would have agreed with you a few months ago, but that was before the Titan Quests and WoC in HM. You pretty much need to abuse the most OP PvE classes to succeed in those, simply because of how ridiculous the enemies are. If the quests were toned down, then I would agree to nerfing all classes down to an equal state.

urania · Jul 22, 2011, 11:35 PM // 23:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Fevered wasn't a problem before Dervs came into play.

there was a strong gimmick in TA using (the old lol 7s recharge) fevered dreams. needless to say, it was as broken (in TA) as the current one was (elsewhere). if i remember correctly, the old lol-wts-free-covered-dw-every-3(?)-seconds wounding strike was (ab)used with it.

so i guess its time to shit on monks with div and shame chains again.
or perhaps bringing a pod necro/dual blinder instead.

Kunder · Jul 23, 2011, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Can we keep the class balance stuff out of this thread? Make a new thread if you guys really want to quibble over whether or not Rangers are worse than Paragons in PvE.

Dervs were a problem before Fevered came into play.
Fevered wasn't a problem before Dervs came into play.

In the absence of more effort, the Fevered nerf gets the job done, but it's a textbook case of addressing the symptom rather than the problem. (Yes, I know Dervishes got a nerf in this update.)

I would hardly say that FD wasn't part of the problem. It was the epitome of a gimmick skill. There is simply no reasonable way FD could be effectively used in a build without it being overpowered. That is because it was spammable god damned AoE daze, nothing else in the game can come close to what it did. Daze is fundamentally supposed to be a high risk/high reward targetted condition, FD was a spammable make-teams-collapse skill that was unusable unless you ran a gimmick.

Infectious · Jul 23, 2011, 12:23 AM // 00:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

I would hardly say that FD wasn't part of the problem. It was the epitome of a gimmick skill. There is simply no reasonable way FD could be effectively used in a build without it being overpowered. That is because it was spammable god damned AoE daze, nothing else in the game can come close to what it did. Daze is fundamentally supposed to be a high risk/high reward targetted condition, FD was a spammable make-teams-collapse skill that was unusable unless you ran a gimmick.

Still missing the point that FD is shit without frag and hum sig + dervs pumping aoe conditions and still pumping out big raw damage.

Kunder · Jul 23, 2011, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infectious

Still missing the point that FD is shit without frag and hum sig + dervs pumping aoe conditions and still pumping out big raw damage.

Even if you nerf that, FD is still a bad skill because it fundamentally doesn't work (it is a binary useless/OP skill). Everything else you mentioned, if FD is nerfed, may not be too badly overpowered and may work for the game. Therefore FD deserves the nerf because it is a skill that simply has no place.

Infectious · Jul 23, 2011, 12:47 AM // 00:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Even if you nerf that, FD is still a bad skill because it fundamentally doesn't work (it is a binary useless/OP skill). Everything else you mentioned, if FD is nerfed, may not be too badly overpowered and may work for the game. Therefore FD deserves the nerf because it is a skill that simply has no place.

No because now it is a redundant skill that will never see usage ever again.
We all know GW needs more useless skills to give even less viable builds.

Pragora · Jul 23, 2011, 01:03 AM // 01:03

Seriously this update to FA was well beyond reason. Okay so we all know the campers on Kurz side taking out turtles or even simply keeping agro. What about all the griefers that goto the Kurz side and open gates? So now lets see the bonuses.

Luxons:
+Siege turtles doing 100-200 dmg through walls on targets within their 500 mile range.
+Griefers can still open gates for an insane amount of time to flood the Kurz base with Luxons off the bat

Kurz:
+No bonus to the update. On the bright side, enjoying more healing for skills bars without it, or with very limited versions of it, due to being shot from one gate to another by a turtle with insane agro range.
+11 Straight losses shows how one sided FA has become. First it was JQ, now its FA.

I know its a bit much to ask, but in fairness, a simple addition to terrain would change the LOS problem from campers, and a change to turtle agro reverted back to the old days would fix the stuck turtle issues in FA.

Kunder · Jul 23, 2011, 01:09 AM // 01:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infectious

No because now it is a redundant skill that will never see usage ever again.
We all know GW needs more useless skills to give even less viable builds.

A skill that is only useless is better than a skill that is only useless OR overpowered, but never balanced. In the latter case, it adds nothing to the game but simultaneously detracts from the game by ruling out potentially good, balanced skills that could make an FD OP build but would otherwise be fine in PvP.

Infectious · Jul 23, 2011, 01:19 AM // 01:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

A skill that is only useless is better than a skill that is only useless OR overpowered, but never balanced. In the latter case, it adds nothing to the game but simultaneously detracts from the game by ruling out potentially good, balanced skills that could be make FD OP but would otherwise be fine in PvP.

I'm going to try this one last time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infectious

Still missing the point that FD is shit without frag and hum sig + dervs pumping aoe conditions and still pumping out big raw damage.

FD, with its old functionality (while being shit on its own), is fine.
Being able to run high spec frag and hum sig on the same bar, its starts to get usable.
Throw 3 melee, who can't be kited, who can churn out conditions like a fat kid going through candy, hit for big numbers, with a no drawback IMS and IAS, and yet still have 90+AL blows it out of the park.
I'm guessing everyone who thinks FD needed the nerf still thinks vaccines are the scourge of the devil, and dervishes are 100% perfectly fine.

Kunder · Jul 23, 2011, 01:32 AM // 01:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infectious

I'm going to try this one last time.

FD, with its old functionality (while being shit on its own), is fine.
Being able to run high spec frag and hum sig on the same bar, its starts to get usable.
Throw 3 melee, who can't be kited, who can churn out conditions like a fat kid going through candy, hit for big numbers, with a no drawback IMS and IAS, and yet still have 90+AL blows it out of the park.

Derp.

FD has never been a balanced skill. It will never be a balanced skill. It is a bad skill.

Dervs are imbalanced, but that doesn't mean randomly nerf the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO out of everything to the ground. Thats not how PvP is fixed, that is how PvP is broken in a slightly different fashion.

In case you haven't noticed, Derv armor just got nerfed a ton, churning conditions is much less of a problem with FD gone, melee that doesn't hit for big numbers has always been useless and the derv "thing" is no drawback on the IMS/IAS other than not nearly having 100% uptime (guess what else was just nerfed in this update as well?)

Quote:

I'm guessing everyone who thinks FD needed the nerf still thinks vaccines are the scourge of the devil, and dervishes are 100% perfectly fine

If we are going to start degrading ourselves to unsupported personal insults, then you are a little whiny bitch who can't step back from his shitty gimmick play and see that in the big picture FD is simply not worthy of being left in its prior state. Well at least "I'm guessing" that.

Infectious · Jul 23, 2011, 05:35 AM // 05:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Dervs are imbalanced, but that doesn't mean randomly nerf the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO out of everything to the ground.

Do you fail to see the irony in this statement?
The nerf to FD is the very definition of that.

Kunder · Jul 23, 2011, 05:58 AM // 05:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infectious

Do you fail to see the irony in this statement?
The nerf to FD is the very definition of that.

Do you fail to see that being able to do nothing but serve up useless one liners trying to insult my intelligence with such a uselessly empty remark clearly signals that you have no reasonable argument to stand on? No? Alright then, just wanted to make it clear before you make more of a fool of yourself.

Provide a useful, non-gimmick balanced (i.e. not head rolling on keyboard retarded) build incorporating FD, or admit that spammable AoE daze is inherently a bad idea and nothing can be done to change that. Then GTFO.

Reverend Dr · Jul 23, 2011, 07:40 AM // 07:40

Fevered Dreams is one of many skills in this game that will either be used in overpowered gimmicks, or not used at all. Nerfing such a skill into complete oblivion means either preventing a terrible, unfun, unsatisfying, morale dropping gimmick from ever seeing the light of day, or nothing.

Especially when its practically a reversal of the old buff that put the daze clause into fevered dreams in the first place.